From the members of this fanrastic tuttogenealogia I have received original documents on the Antonini family from Udine.
Now the Y - DNA shows that my wife Anthoni-de Antoninis that emerged in Sweden in 1702 and by 1711 in several branches in Finland as mercenaries for the Swedish Kings, are of Viking origin from today`s Sweden, of several Ancient Y-DNA findings, the nearest from 950 in Fröjel, near Visby and Foling, The N Y DNA (N-BY21971 is after 300 hundred years later mutation is found in my wife's brothers) is extremeky rare amongst Vikings, i.e. living as Vikings amongst the Viking culture. Now, following the Medieval Castel Rheimchronic from South Bavaria, it has been revealed, that Emperor Otto ll contracted mercenearies amongst those Vikings that opposed the ambitions of the Danish Vikings, especially the good known Harald Blåtand (Bluetooth) in 974-975. Following the Chronic these Vikings, from the areas opposing Harald, came into Nordgau region in Southern Bavaria and there were settled in the southern forestal- mountains areas.
My problem at the moment is the place name "Chosapia" in Italian language:
”…che primo di questo cosi Nobile Chosapia wenne dal Germania a fermarsi “ My, weak deduction is that this would mean Kashubia ? The term Cashubia would be from early Modern Age or Medieval. Sorry to as this kind of advice, but it would give the path for Nordau, then Capodistria, then Friuli and so on up to the North.
Non penso sia possibile capire da una frase messa senza il suo contesto generale.
Il fatto che sia un toponimo italiano lo deduci dal fatto che nel testo che hai consultato sia scritto nella nostra lingua?
Potrebbe essere anche una storpiatura o chissà che cosa!
A quale proposito viene messo?
Ci vogliono più informazioni
From the members of this fanrastic tuttogenealogia I have received original documents on the Antonini family from Udine.
Now the Y - DNA shows that my wife Anthoni-de Antoninis that emerged in Sweden in 1702 and by 1711 in several branches in Finland as mercenaries for the Swedish Kings, are of Viking origin from today`s Sweden, of several Ancient Y-DNA findings, the nearest from 950 in Fröjel, near Visby and Foling, The N Y DNA (N-BY21971 is after 300 hundred years later mutation is found in my wife's brothers) is extremeky rare amongst Vikings, i.e. living as Vikings amongst the Viking culture. Now, following the Medieval Castel Rheimchronic from South Bavaria, it has been revealed, that Emperor Otto ll contracted mercenearies amongst those Vikings that opposed the ambitions of the Danish Vikings, especially the good known Harald Blåtand (Bluetooth) in 974-975. Following the Chronic these Vikings, from the areas opposing Harald, came into Nordgau region in Southern Bavaria and there were settled in the southern forestal- mountains areas.
My problem at the moment is the place name "Chosapia" in Italian language:
”…che primo di questo cosi Nobile Chosapia wenne dal Germania a fermarsi “ My, weak deduction is that this would mean Kashubia ? The term Cashubia would be from early Modern Age or Medieval. Sorry to as this kind of advice, but it would give the path for Nordau, then Capodistria, then Friuli and so on up to the North.
The word "Chosaia", with the H after the C means a "italianisation" of a non-italian name.
If the original was Kashubia, perhaps the reference was to the Polish Kashubia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubia
Thank you all for your comments: "...Antonino figlio d Andrea, e Nipote di quel Antonino, che primo di Questa cosi Nobile Chosapia wenne dalla Germania a fermarsi nel Friuli fino l anno 1308..." They arrived Friuli likely via Capodistria, as now suggested. In the genealogies from the 17th century are suggested also one other branch in the service of the Princes of Celje, which is very much possible, but PhD Liliana gargneglutti in her research in 2016 (Gli Antonini - Cittadini di Udine) does not give much weight on this, as she really bases her work on original archives.
Kashubia it would be. I will work more with Polish Genealogists and contact the foudation researching Kashubian history. Kashubia sits well in geography and the old Rheimschronic froim kastelbeurg, The Antoninis today have also several Autosomal DNA matches on Gdansk areas. But, the family with this new (mid 14th century) Italian name after 1400 also arrived Gdansk and kashubian region - thus the Autosomal DNA traces are diufficult to follow. One Michel Antonin was as mercenary in the service of the City of Gdansk in early 1600ies and he had family. He is related with the Swedish.-Finnish Anthonis. Also, later Antoni spouses after 1700 share Medieval ancestry in Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. This chaos maybe solved in time.
The other places, I tried to link "Chosapia" are in Slovenia and Hungary, places where Antonis are round and after 1400 found. First is Kapor but that has always been Capodistria in Italian. The other place is Kassa, Cassovia, Kosizse (Hungary) where the first known Antonini doctor was born and became the docor for Sigismund The Old of Poland (with Bona Sforza). During the 16th century doctors for the following Sigismund Kings, were from Gdansk, of Stophius family (from Silesia originally) and the Stophius family is in the ancestry of one branch Anthonis after Petter Anthoni from Stettin, who also was first a mercenary in the Danmark, then in Stralsund -Pommern and finally a Swedish spy, diplomat and the guvernour in the same area and in the Swedish service as the ancestors of my wife´s and professor Anthoni´s branch, in the Swedish Colony of Ingermanland (today the Leningrad Oblast), that left for mainland Sweden in 1702 and in 1711 the present Finland area.
Just a couple a days ago, I found the coat tof arms of the family Grans von Uttendorf that is mentioned and the coat of arms drawn in the letter for Count Enrico del Torso in Udine. It is a perfect hit in the Upper-Austrian area where the Castle Rheim Chronic locates the group of former Vikings, arriving with Otto II.
Professor Eric Anthoni (d.1972, PhD on Medieval History, Universities of Turku and Helsinki, Finland) has used the same sources as his co-timer with Enrico del Torso. In an interview (the Finnish Broadcastibg Company, YLE) in 1972 he said, of the ancestry from Italy that he does not know the original origin of the family, of what natiuonality it was of the beginnings. But he knew the letter and the sources of Enrico del Torso. Eric A. knew despite the information of Franciscus de Antoninis, who came from Ingermanland for Stockholm in 1702 telling for in the King Of Sweden adressed letter that he is from Italy. It was not the whole truth, Poland-Lithuania was the main enemy of the Sweden with the Saxon (German) and Russia (Peter the Great) that it was better not to tell about any Pomeranian or Polish roots or Polish service of at least two branches of the family. Also, Eric Anthoni, did not know of the Viking ancestors -or kept it secret, only the DNA has now made it sure, Thank you for helping us far away from Italy with ancestry of the swordmaster/fencing master Sir Franciscus de Antoninis.
E' solo una mia impressione, ma se quello virgolettato è il testo da cui hai preso le informazioni, non sembra un posto perchè dopo parla di Germania come luogo da cui provenne questa "Nobile Chosapia"
Sembra un sinonimo di Stirpe, gente nobile e famosa, retaggio storico ecc.ecc. per indicare una famiglia di antiche radici.
NON sono sicura di ciò, anche perchè hai trovato un posto in Polonia, che potrebbe corrispondere e poi perchè bisognerebbe vedere la lingua originale, che non conosco, per intenderne le sfumature.
Questo confermerebbe la mia ipotesi: PROSAPIA è la discendenza e infatti il termine, scritto o copiato male, ha insieme l'aggettivo nobile, ma il LUOGO da cui la famiglia proverrebbe è la GERMANIA.
Penso che la Polonia e tutto il resto c'entri poco o niente
https://www.google.it/books/edition/Gra ... CAAJ?hl=it
Non so se ci sia un collegamento con i tuoi ed è solo un frammento,ma la vedova di cui si parla era di Klagenfurt, in Germania o aveva a che fare con quella città nel 1787...
Una tua precedente richiesta ad altro Sito, così abbiamo una visuale più completa e meno complessa dei risultati del Dna.
Non siamo genetisti,ma genealogisti!!
Thank you for your kind comments. I will follow the links given and read more documents from Germany.
"Cannella 55" wrote about the Rovereto Antoninis and Klagenfurt. With the help of the Rovereto Museum Staff last year, one branch of this Antonini from Gargna (Villa Gargna) also left round 1400 for Rovereto, the Museum even located the still standing house in the city centre. So, this hint is also to be checked. I believe this Antonini branch was a new found for the Antoninisin Italy as well. With the descendants of the different Antonini -named families from Rovereto, we managed to separe this oldest Antonini branch from Veneto-Udine. It was not an easy task and got help from the genealogists there. Their coat of arms on the small palace portal is later from under Austrian rule. But cousins they are.
How names/places are written in different laguages in different areas is really exhausting to try to comprehent. Also the coat of arms found in the Fondo di Torso, is the original of "der Grans". Grans von Uttendorf nobile which is noted as thurnier nobility of Upper Austria-and near Bavaria areas, just got to know that. The different coats of arms of der Grans are found in Siebmacher arms collections -as from German areas, and in https;//uurl.kbr.b/1733715 from Belgium (there page 40 -really poorly visible numbering but a good source! A lot of coat of arms I have not before seen -from Baden Wurttember and Bavaria etc.) . The red balks on the arms run on both directions from left to right and from right to left. The German Uttendorf family has a connection with the Counts of Hals in Nordgau (Norwald) -the area suspected, When Emperor Otto II arrived Nordgau, he made changes amongst the nobility not just there but also in time also in Villingen areas in Baden -Schwenningen after he cut off the rebellious nobility and set near counts in the area. The origin of the counts, and nobility, is somewhat unclear in the latest research as well, thus very interesting. The drawing of the coat of arms in the letter for Count Enrico del Torso is without the helmet and fethears as in German an Belgium descriptions of the Grans family. The Belgian source does not give Grans as counts, only of nobility. The Grans maybe found in Baden-Wurttemberg also and that would determine the connection.
Also a Swedisch Skanze (a small hilltop castle) is the area, ruins still on place, in Nordgau area -as mentioned in the Rheimschronic.
Following your comments I am trying to read Cashubian genealogist, and with a bit more new information also from Courland, as the Vikings settled also there (Swedish and Danish) concentrating on sea robery - profession as usual! The N Y DNA is found in Kashubia. Courland is Khurland and again ... Viking Jarls were there, If meaning a place -one step nearer for Chosapia...?
Thank you all - will follow your hints!
Dear all. After the Cannella55 and the given synonym I must agree on the idea that the wording described the status of the ancestry, not a place. Thank you for correcting due to my poor knowledge on Italian. After reading more from the copies from Fondo del Torso, sent by a member of this group, a new avenue opened. The coat of arms given in the letter for Count Enrico del Torso drown in the document and commented as the coat of arms before the year 1400, found in the Republic of Venice is the same as the old der Granss/ Grans von Uttendorff family from Upper Austria. I found the same coat of arms in the Dutch Gerle Armorial and in the German Siebmacher Armorial - the latter with explanations. This family is connected with the Counts of Cham, Hals family from early 1000ies, in Nordgau. The castle ruins there is known as the Swedish Castle, and it was rebuild by Emperor Otto ll, just during the suggested dates in the Rheimschronic of Kastle. The origins of the counts located by Otto ll in Bavaria is not fully agreed in the latest research. Otto ll also had to put down the rebellious counts and lower nobile in Baden Wurttemberg where Villingen surroundings got new settlements as did Nordwald Nordgau. I wonder there should be other Norman-Viking ancestry, too. As the Alemanni and Suebi Y DNA is R as much in Sweden this rare N of de Antoninis may for a small part hint for more findings. Anyway, the path stays with der Granss in Nordgau, from Bavarian Willing to Villingen or more directly for Upper Austria and from the to Capodistria and Venice in time for Veneto. Much to study still.
Buongiorno! A little more follow up afterthe memoires of Count di Antonini, in the Fondo del Torso arhives by Enrico del Torso. Randeck descendants in Aquieila are of the same ancestry as the Counts of Hals and the Passau von Uttendorf family, Hals as in Cham, Bavaria. The von Uttendorf are mentioned in 1290 as uncle´s of the Counts of Hals, as the mother of Count of Hals mother is from the Uttendorf family in Passau. Following Randeck genealogy from Aaquieila we end in the area in Bayern, where the Swedish Castle ruins of the 10th century still exists today. Emperor Otto II made changes in both areas, in Bavaria and also in Baden-Wurttemberg due to the rebellious nobility. I still tracking the latest research there, but both Bavaria Cham area, Passau and surroundings and Villingen in present Baden-Wurttemberg are areas new settlements were put up in proper dates and Villingen region is mentioned as one.
On this, in the reasent research of PhD Liliana Gargneglutti is mentioned another branch connected in 17th century by the di Antonini counts with the origins -with the blessing of the pope! That Antonini branch would have been mercenaries serving the Counts of Celje. Gargneglutti just mentioned this i her book. The notable remark is that the branch explains its origins from the era of Ludwig the Pious -that is much earlier than the Kastle Chronic of Cham tels (970ies). In 882-883 the from England departured Vikings ransacked Rhein areas until Trier, arriving via Dorestad. And many Dorestad rulers in Frisia were also of Viking descend, at times in the secvice of the Carolinians, sometimes opposing. As the ancestry Ancient DNA is found since 750 AD until 950 AD in Estonia, Gotland, Ösel, Sigtuna, Skara etc. amongst the Swedish Vikings the most likely arrival is stll in 976 with Otto II. If earlier arrival via Holland-Bavaria-Baden-Croatia ever will be solved this does not disagree the path from Viking dominated Frisia, Slesvig or Pommern. And, some hints point that Folingh name may be found in Kleve, on the border between Holland and Germany today, not in Swaben (Svevia). Just for the curiosity the old annals and chronics and runes from Danmark, Sweden and Norway and England give names that emerge in several families of the later spouses of the de Antoninis-Anthoni from Sweden, Scotland, Norway, Denmark even Russia (originally from Sweden) many also well researched today. So my interest is understandaple i believe, The paternal direct lineage is also of the era and place. This is not rare in the Nordic areas but to follow one in Italy, that is.
Grazie, ma noi non penso ti potremo aiutare per una ricerca così vasta.
Mi pare tu abbia trovato molto e quindi buon proseguimento
Ovviamente confermo, se mai ce ne fosse bisogno, che chosapia non esiste ed è PROSAPIA, che ho trovato in riferimento a famiglie di rilievo ed usato di più nel passato.
Gli intrecci storico-geografici non possono essere oggetto della nostra ricerca genealogica, che esula proprio dalla nostre competenze e richiede delle consultazioni su testi specifici, che noi non abbiamo e non possiamo nemmeno conoscere.
Ti auguro di poter intrecciare i vari rami, ciao
Lorena
contracted mercenearies amongst those Vikings that opposed the ambitions of the Danish Vikings, especially the good known Harald Blåtand (Bluetooth) in 974-975. Following the Chronic these Vikings, from the areas opposing Harald, came into Nordgau region in Southern Bavaria and there were settled in the southern forestal- mountains areas. 
